tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post4588953761571210835..comments2023-10-30T15:13:22.680+00:00Comments on Strictly Writing: Guest Blog by Rosy Thornton - The Rights and Responsibilities of the WriterDThttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11803989273524731892noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-55963431289183717942010-09-07T06:46:47.622+01:002010-09-07T06:46:47.622+01:00dqwbtwgswlpxbozduzjty. acne treatment
ipvmpwdqwbtwgswlpxbozduzjty. <a href="http://www.acnetreatment2k.com/" rel="nofollow">acne treatment</a><br /> ipvmpwAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-79258806488363292022010-02-07T18:00:32.999+00:002010-02-07T18:00:32.999+00:00'my fear [...is that the] politics of what I w...'my fear [...is that the] politics of what I write [...] will get in the way of my ever producing "good art" or "proper art"'<br /><br />The great 19th-century realist novelists seemed to manage to combine their politics/philosophy with their literary art.<br /><br />And <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jan/24/new-labour-moves-uk-rightwing" rel="nofollow">it looks as though</a> you're heading towards being 'an outlaw, at least in your thinking', Rosy:<br /><br />'<i>John Curtice, professor of politics at Strathclyde University, said the proportion of people who believe the government should redistribute from the better-off to the less well-off has fallen significantly over the past 13 years. Research shows that half the population supported such a move in the mid-1990s, but that has fallen to less than a third.<br /><br />Attitudes towards welfare have also hardened over the same period. In 1997, 46% of the population believed that unemployment benefits were too low, but that has now fallen to below 30%.</i>'Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-66258101308538515722010-02-07T16:42:20.345+00:002010-02-07T16:42:20.345+00:00Oops, sorry! That was meant to say 'we can NON...Oops, sorry! That was meant to say 'we can NONE of us help who we are...'Rosy Thorntonhttp://www.rosythornton.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-67849457424346876492010-02-07T16:40:54.837+00:002010-02-07T16:40:54.837+00:00Neal, I guess you have put your finger on precisel...Neal, I guess you have put your finger on precisely my fear. That because, for me, the politics of what I write and how I write it comes before any kind of 'artistic vision' (since l'm not a very artistic person, and am a highly political one), that will get in the way of my ever producing 'good art' or 'proper art', in some way. Bt I suppose we can one of us help how we are. And, as Phillipa said somewhere way back up the thread, maybe this stuff - the essentials of where we come from when we write - is what makes all writers different one from another, and defines our 'voice'.<br /><br />Thanks again, everyone who has replied, for a really interesting discussion!Rosy Thorntonhttp://www.rosythornton.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-51216691564512210492010-02-07T02:18:35.298+00:002010-02-07T02:18:35.298+00:00At the end of your post you say, "Does that m...At the end of your post you say, "Does that make me peculiar? Very probably." <br /><br />To the contrary. I think your areas of rectitude put you right in the middle of the the greatest swath of the Politically Correct middle class. <br /><br />And I think that to be an artist worth anything, you have to be an outlaw, at least in your thinking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-82511970857772923842010-02-06T19:25:52.818+00:002010-02-06T19:25:52.818+00:00This is a really interesting post - and I've n...This is a really interesting post - and I've not devoted nearly enough time to reading and digesting the accompanying comments, but I have to say that I personally find the idea of a writer having a responsibility to write or show anything at all totally alien to the way I work and the way I think about what I do. I don't think there's a moral component to art at all - not mine, anyway. My only responsibility is to give my reader something stimulating to read, and I reserve the right to make 'stimulating' mean pretty much anything I like. <br /><br />:)Jennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10347219783395836620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-20038562935416198172010-02-06T04:13:40.340+00:002010-02-06T04:13:40.340+00:00"the flipside of freedom of expression is res..."the flipside of freedom of expression is responsibility for what we choose to express; that as writers we have a duty to think about the potential impact of our work on those who read it."<br /><br />Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you.Ann Somervillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18174848179481724352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-24566369265688131852010-02-06T00:03:20.448+00:002010-02-06T00:03:20.448+00:00Wow! This post has generated a lot of response.
...Wow! This post has generated a lot of response.<br /><br />All I know as a reader is that I love romance novels as a bit of escapism.<br /><br />What's with all this stuff about crazy fantasies? Are you saying that reading romance novels is going to turn me into some kind of lunatic?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-14909051845844749612010-02-05T22:55:52.244+00:002010-02-05T22:55:52.244+00:00I definitely agree that Heyer was a good writer. I...I definitely agree that Heyer was a good writer. I also think her definition of her two basic types gave her quite a lot of room for flexibility: Freddy and Sir Waldo are both examples of her non-savage type of hero, but they're still very, very different from each other.<br /><br />Re sparks flying, that isn't something I really enjoy reading about in a romance. Conflict between the hero and heroine tends to make me feel anxious, whereas other people find it interesting and exciting. I prefer seeing the hero and heroine cooperating from relatively early on in a novel, and getting to know each other better in a non-confrontational way. So <i>The Grand Sophy</i> isn't one of my favourite Heyers. Sophy makes me feel a bit exhausted, and I end up feeling as though I want to lie on a sofa alongside Lady Ombersley and Sancia.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-52467673982814780752010-02-05T22:08:50.508+00:002010-02-05T22:08:50.508+00:00"Do you think it is possible to write from th..."Do you think it is possible to write from the viewpoint of a character whose views you abhor?"<br /><br />Yes, but only in literary fiction. ;-) Seriously, to write him/her properly you'd have to enter into his/her viewpoint, and understand and make sense of why they are how they are, and why they do what they do. And comprendre tout, c'est pardoner tout...<br /><br />Laura: Fair enough. I'm identifying alpha with Heyer's Type Two hero 'The brusque, savage sort with a foul temper', with Rochester as the original. Only of course it isn't as simple as that, because she's far too good a writer. Aiken Hodge describes Charles as 'A Type One who thinks he's a Type Two'. But as Aiken also says, 'When a Type Two heroine meets a Type Two hero, sparks will fly...' and Sophy is definitely a Type Two: the mannish sort brought up by her father. (Yes, I know Heyer reverse the terminology at some point. But the biog's in the other room...)Emma Darwinhttp://emmadarwin.typepad.com/thisitchofwriting/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-42358417536235228062010-02-05T21:13:45.034+00:002010-02-05T21:13:45.034+00:00I think that any character a writer creates must r...I think that any character a writer creates must reflect some element of that writer's personal views on the world, otherwise how could the writer have imagined them?<br /><br />It might be fun to try to create a character who has totally different views from yourself. And to try to understand their attitudes could be enlightening, but I think it would be very difficult to make them sound authentic.<br /><br />Do you think it is possible to write from the viewpoint of a character whose views you abhor?Barbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02309140067917548994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-39409664935025236862010-02-05T20:39:16.439+00:002010-02-05T20:39:16.439+00:00I think Edward Cullen, the lead hero of the Twilig...I think Edward Cullen, the lead hero of the Twilight series, is such a hugely romantic character because he satisfies both parties - he has his alpha side (the vampire) and yet the human in him is sensitive, caring and considerate to the extreme in his dealings with the mortal love interest, Bella.Administratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13894920115299109640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-21119781185828941852010-02-05T20:39:13.267+00:002010-02-05T20:39:13.267+00:00'(Laura: The Grand Sophy, Venetia)'
This ...'(Laura: The Grand Sophy, Venetia)'<br /><br />This is where we run into a very common problem: one person's definition of an 'alpha' may differ considerably from another person's definition of an 'alpha'.<br /><br />I'll quote <i>Kate Walker's 12-point Guide to Writing Romance</i> because she writes for the M&B line that Rosy mentioned:<br /><br />The alpha hero is:<br />* A leader<br />* Macho with a heart of gold<br />* Handsome in a strong, ruggedly masculine way<br />* Powerful and successful<br />* Strong, determined and driven<br />* Totally ruthless when the situation calls for it<br />* He is such a strong, forceful personality that this can make him the sort of man you - and his heroine - either love or hate. (100)<br /><br />I don't really think Damerel fits into that category. He's got used to being a rake, but he's not powerful and successful, he's not ruthless, he's not driven. He gives me the impression that he's a rather bored, unhappy man who's wasted his money and intellect and doesn't believe he can change because he's internalised society's low opinion of him.<br /><br />Charles Rivenhall? No, I don't think so. He's grumpy, rather than successful. He seems more stubborn than powerful. He's worn down by his father's debts and worries about his family. He isn't sure he can work out a solution, and he's trying to control them, but I don't think he has the self-confidence or leadership qualities of an 'alpha'.<br /><br />The Duke of Avon, on the other hand, or Simon the Coldheart, or the heroes of <i>Regency Buck</i> and <i>Bath Tangle</i> did come to mind when I tried to think of Heyer's 'alpha' heroes. Mr Darcy's the 'alpha' of Austen's heroes.<br /><br />As I said, though, definitions vary.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-36656394988643730772010-02-05T20:07:16.329+00:002010-02-05T20:07:16.329+00:00I dunno. Maybe I'm insufficiently reconstructe...I dunno. Maybe I'm insufficiently reconstructed, but I like alpha heros. And it seems to me that for an alpha heroine to encounter an alpha hero, and for them to fight their way towards an accommodation, is a perfectly satisfactory happy ending. (Laura: The Grand Sophy, Venetia). <br /><br />What's wrong is when what the story is transmitting, is the idea that happy endings are only available to alpha male and beta female pairs, and the female, however alpha-ish at the beginning had better embrace beta-hood (beta-tude?) if she wants her man.Emma Darwinhttp://emmadarwin.typepad.com/thisitchofwriting/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-86389873540677071592010-02-05T19:05:13.506+00:002010-02-05T19:05:13.506+00:00Ooo, Laura, that’s so interesting.
First of all,...Ooo, Laura, that’s so interesting. <br /><br />First of all, I totally agree with you, Sam and Phillipa, that it would be wholly wrong to set up as some kind of feminist thought police, claiming to pass judgment on the people and situations with which other women choose to people their imaginative lives. If I sounded as if I was saying that, I accept that I was quite out of line. <br /><br />It is interesting to ask theoretical questions about a woman (or a man) who enjoys, for example, violent rape fantasies: about where those ideas come from, and whether, were society differently structured, those fantasies would still exist. Imagination, and particularly the sexual imagination, is powerful and complex and hard to rationalise. <br /><br />However, since these things are quite imponderable. Therefore, as Laura says, all we can do here is talk about ourselves, and how our writing and reading choices relate to our own politics, beliefs, imaginations and fantasies. I think that for me, my beliefs about the desirable state of gender relations is (or has become) so central to my life and thinking, that I don’t think I could ever write about – any more than I would daydream about – a mean and moody ‘alpha’ man. The men in my books therefore all tend to be liberal-minded, self-critical, and acutely aware of others’ feelings. A load of boring wimps, in fact! But I don’t think that means there is no potential for conflict in a novel – even a romantically themed novel – with such a creature in the male lead. It’s just that the areas of conflict are perhaps rather different.<br /><br />Thank you very much, everyone who has replied to my post – it’s been really fascinating!Rosy Thorntonhttp://www.rosythornton.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-67503290550281496762010-02-05T15:03:01.880+00:002010-02-05T15:03:01.880+00:00'As for the argument that fantasies are only f...'As for the argument that fantasies are only fantasies and therefore harmless, I must admit that I regard it with great distrust'.<br /><br />I do too, because it seems to me that sometimes "it's only a fantasy" is used as an excuse to shut down discussion and avoid uncomfortable examinations of the fantasy in question. All the same, not everyone has fantasies which align nicely and comfortably with their politics/ethics in other aspects of life. I'm lucky that way, because I prefer to read about so-called 'beta' heroes, i.e. the kind who discuss things with the heroine and don't try to take charge of her and don't need to be 'tamed'. But if someone has thought through what their fantasies are, and is aware that they might be considered problematic but (a) can't change what they find interesting/exciting and (b) is fully aware that those fantasies would not be healthy/safe if they were lived outside the context of fantasy, then what else are they supposed to do? I don't think they'd get much pleasure out of trying to write or read about fantasies they found boring, and it certainly wouldn't be very healthy for them to sink into shame and guilt about them.<br /><br />I'll plunge into some speculation, both about other people's preferences and about writing fiction, and that's probably not very sensible of me, because I can really only speak authoritatively about my own reading preferences and I couldn't write a novel but here goes....<br /><br />As far as I can tell, many people find 'beta' heroes very, very boring. They seem to find conflict exciting and many authors depend on conflict between the couple to keep their plots moving.<br /><br />I suspect that making egalitarian romantic relationships between nice men and women seem interesting is more of a challenge for writers. I say that because (a) there aren't so many existing models of how a story about that kind of relationship would work, and (b) because it seems to me that unless you introduced external conflict (and in M&Bs there is supposed to be a strong focus on the central relationship, so there isn't always so much space for complicated external plots), many readers won't feel there's anything of interest happening in the novel. Didn't Tolstoy say something about how all happy families were the same? I think he's wrong, but there seems to be a general feeling that conflicted, unhappy people who do bad/dangerous things are more interesting than well-balanced people who live ethically and in harmony with others.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-30148168998258820162010-02-05T15:02:17.593+00:002010-02-05T15:02:17.593+00:00I think the idea that young women shouldn't de...I think the idea that young women shouldn't desire a domineering man is an important one, but we don't want to saddle them with wet blankets either, a feisty female needs a powerful male character to balance her out. For me, the key thing here is the idea of dominance (which is a totally different thing from, say, a strong male) because it has such unpleasant connotations.redwriterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17332262756712503019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-46683675622156939442010-02-05T15:01:15.384+00:002010-02-05T15:01:15.384+00:00"As for the argument that fantasies are only ..."As for the argument that fantasies are only fantasies and therefore harmless, I must admit that I regard it with great distrust. Mainly because I have so often read it advanced by apologists for pornography of the most brutal and dehumanising kind. Can any of us be sure that our fantasies don't colour our more conscious thoughts, feelings and actions? I would prefer a world where young women didn't feel any desire or need to fantasise about domineering men who "aren't used to taking no for an answer". IMHO, a lot of the problems of the world are caused by men not knowing that no (especially from a woman) actually means no."<br /><br />I agree with Sam.<br /><br />You may find the prospect alarming and disturbing, Rosy, but I think that millions - of women of all ages and levels of education DO have these fantasies - yes and very dark ones indeed. To be honest, I would distrust anyone who tried to deny women the right to have these thoughts and express them if they want to.Phillipahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15638591059241672256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-67681136216961909042010-02-05T14:53:49.235+00:002010-02-05T14:53:49.235+00:00Very interesting post, Rosy. For me, part of the f...Very interesting post, Rosy. For me, part of the fun of writing comes in the sense of 'trying on' a different character. It can be quite thrilling having a character think in a way that may be abhorrent to me in real life. As I'm generally a very PC sort of lefty, I guess it's just interesting to try and imagine what it's like to be so different...<br />I'm saying all this but I don;t think I could bear to create some kind of foul racist though..and if I did, there would have to be a comeuppance.Caroline Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04708248040141519582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-28738911431189368942010-02-05T14:45:47.900+00:002010-02-05T14:45:47.900+00:00I think many psychologists would say, Rosy, that f...I think many psychologists would say, Rosy, that fantasies are an intrinsic and very healthy part of our individual psychological lives.<br /><br />And i think it patronises women to suggest that they let their fantasies affect their logical, sensible everyday thinking.Administratorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13894920115299109640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-3556487068682965672010-02-05T14:24:49.088+00:002010-02-05T14:24:49.088+00:00That last post sounded really pompous, didn't ...That last post sounded really pompous, didn't it? Sorry about that. Just, y'know, debating...Rosy Thorntonhttp://www.rosythornton.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-71400797473831682682010-02-05T14:22:48.955+00:002010-02-05T14:22:48.955+00:00I agree, Laura - that feeding women a fantasy wher...I agree, Laura - that feeding women a fantasy where they tame the alpha hero - where they redeem their man - is pretty much as bad as one where they are themselves redeemed by a man. The honest novel, as Emma has said, will show that real relationships require accommodations on both sides.<br /><br />As for the argument that fantasies are only fantasies and therefore harmless, I must admit that I regard it with great distrust. Mainly because I have so often read it advanced by apologists for pornography of the most brutal and dehumanising kind. Can any of us be sure that our fantasies don't colour our more conscious thoughts, feelings and actions? I would prefer a world where young women didn't feel any desire or need to fantasise about domineering men who "aren't used to taking no for an answer". IMHO, a lot of the problems of the world are caused by men not knowing that no (especially from a woman) actually means no.Rosy Thorntonhttp://www.rosythornton.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-52943257803549852052010-02-05T14:10:17.222+00:002010-02-05T14:10:17.222+00:00I also like M&Bs, and I agree with Redwriter t...I also like M&Bs, and I agree with Redwriter that in many (but admittedly not all) of the novels where the hero is an 'alpha' with obnoxious views, to borrow your own words, Rosy, 'those views [are] challenged before the end of the book'.<br /><br />I suppose you might argue that having the alpha hero challenged in this way, and changing as a result of the challenge, could encourage women to think that they could change the minds of men with obnoxious views, but that's a slightly different problem, and I have the impression that for many readers it's part of the fantasy which they know <i>is</i> a fantasy.Laura Vivancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906661869372622821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-65768234386499228882010-02-05T13:03:43.091+00:002010-02-05T13:03:43.091+00:00For example, the guidelines for the Mills & Bo...For example, the guidelines for the Mills & Boon Modern Romance series says: "When the hero strides into the story he’s a powerful, ruthless man who knows exactly what—and who—he wants, and he isn’t used to taking no for an answer!"<br /><br />I like Mills and Boon! They're fun! I suppose the point now, is that although the hero still comes stomping in with that attitude, the heroine is more likely to say 'Well I'll consider it if you stop behaving like such a twit, because I'm busy here and I haven't got time for nonsense' than to fall into his arms in some sort of testosterone induced swoon.redwriterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17332262756712503019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2725342624231517088.post-28899741958179798502010-02-05T12:37:20.244+00:002010-02-05T12:37:20.244+00:00Xuxana, I suppose I was thinking mainly of categor...Xuxana, I suppose I was thinking mainly of category romance, in a lot of which an 'alpha' hero is still de rigueur. Look on the Harlequin website at the guidelines for almost any of their imprints. <br />For example, the guidelines for the Mills & Boon Modern Romance series says: "When the hero strides into the story he’s a powerful, ruthless man who knows exactly what—and who—he wants, and he isn’t used to taking no for an answer!"<br />(Eek!)Rosy Thorntonhttp://www.rosythornton.comnoreply@blogger.com